Author Topic: Color Management  (Read 3199 times)

girod

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Color Management
« on: July 14, 2010, 10:14:39 PM »
Hello Keith,

I thought that for easy reference, I'd continue your mentoring on Color Management here.

Now I know that you use Apple when you mentioned Safari. For Windows, is Mozilla Firefox 3.6.6 the best color-managed browser?...and also free....... I'm still using Explorer......

I will start looking for a good price on X-rite ColorMunki......I would appreciate it if you could let us know if you happened to find one.

As always, thank you very much
jaime

keithsnell

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Re: Color Management
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2010, 10:57:36 PM »
Hi Jamie,

I actually use Safari on Windows 7 64-bit.  There's a free Windows 7 compatible download here: http://www.apple.com/safari/download/.  For the most part I like Safari as a browser, and it has a cool built-in spell checker too.  (It just has issues with a few javascript plugins, and can be more resource intensive than Internet Explorer.)  When I run into issues with Safari not handling plugins correctly, I usually fall back to Internet Explorer.

Firefox still has some issues with color management.  (It can make some non-color managed websites look really bad, and if you view an image that doesn't have a color space embedded, it "assumes" the color space is sRGB, which might not be correct.)

I'd recommend that you give Safari a try.  The color management functions are well implemented and it runs fine on Windows 7.

Keith

Chris

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Re: Color Management
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2010, 11:35:48 PM »
I had to google wide gamut monitor. The idea of color management is interesting but I don't think it's something I'm ready for. I'm pretty satisfied with my 22" newegg special.  ;D
Based on my quick google search it seems that color management would be more important for print. I never print anything. My wife does print some stuff but our snapshots usually turn out well enough from walmart or snapfish etc. I do hope that one day my pictures will be good enough to hang on my wall.

I would like to learn more about it though.

I think my wife has safari on her laptop. I haven't tried it. Maybe I should.

Edit: I forgot to mention that my cameras only take jpegs so i don't know if it would make a difference. I did find out there is a way to change my new camera to raw but I think I'll wait until the warranty is out before I try it.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 12:57:48 AM by Chris »

keithsnell

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Re: Color Management
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2010, 07:39:50 AM »
I had to google wide gamut monitor. The idea of color management is interesting but I don't think it's something I'm ready for. I'm pretty satisfied with my 22" newegg special.  ;D
Based on my quick google search it seems that color management would be more important for print. I never print anything. My wife does print some stuff but our snapshots usually turn out well enough from walmart or snapfish etc. I do hope that one day my pictures will be good enough to hang on my wall.

I would like to learn more about it though.

I think my wife has safari on her laptop. I haven't tried it. Maybe I should.

Edit: I forgot to mention that my cameras only take jpegs so i don't know if it would make a difference. I did find out there is a way to change my new camera to raw but I think I'll wait until the warranty is out before I try it.

Hi Chris,

I'll look for a good reference on color management and post the link.  With the wide range of monitors available today, color management is getting more important, since each different type of monitor will present the color differently in a non color managed workflow.  Color management enables computer systems (monitors) to display the colors consistently across different systems.

What is your new camera?  (Perhaps I can help with the transition to raw.)

Chris

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Re: Color Management
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2010, 08:28:53 AM »
Quote
I'll look for a good reference on color management and post the link.

Thanks.

Here is a link to the camera.

Canon Powershot SX20IS

Here is a link to the utility that enables raw and several other things that might be nice.

CHDK

It looks like it will be easy enough to do and it isn't supposed to make any permanant changes to the firmware.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 08:39:01 AM by Chris »

keithsnell

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Re: Color Management
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2010, 01:22:04 PM »

Here is a link to the utility that enables raw and several other things that might be nice.

CHDK

It looks like it will be easy enough to do and it isn't supposed to make any permanant changes to the firmware.

Looks cool.  I'd definitely wait until some of the bugs are addressed and the version for your camera transitions from "beta." 

It will be interesting to see what camera manufacturer is first to support an "open" platform that encourages user development like this.  They'll certainly get an enthusiastic user base from the people that frequent that site.

 

Chris

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Re: Color Management
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2010, 05:00:21 PM »
Google could make an Android camera.

girod

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Re: Color Management
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2010, 09:38:14 PM »
Hello Keith,

I finally had the chance to download Safari and my monitor looks like an Apple now, its beautiful!....have to visit more websites and compare to Explorer to see the difference closer. I can't find a zooming feature, is there one?

Next is the X-rite ColorMunki Photo. So far, the best price (with reliable sellers) I've found is $449 minus 5% discount at BHPhoto thru Bing cashback. My new HP monitor is $380......uuuhhmmmm.......do I deserve the ColorMunki???????.......I'm only a hobbyist with main output to the web sharing my images with family, friends and this community........I rarely print, when I do - I send it online (Kodak or Photoworks).........but  I'm so passionate about producing the best image quality that I could from my D700........decision....decision.......decision.....

Meanwhile, I'm trying to have a good grasp as to how to calibrate my monitors (4, including my laptop) with the ColorMunki. Here's what I found so far: 1) http://www.xrite.com/documents/apps/public/helpdeskpdfs/Windows7_MunkiInstall_Final.pdf  and 2) http://blog.xritephoto.com/?p=2255

Anything else I need to know on how to use the Colormunki?

Thanks,
jaime

keithsnell

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Re: Color Management
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2010, 10:33:25 PM »
Hi Jaime,

I think you will like Safari.  It definitely does a better job of displaying accurate image colors (as long as the images are tagged with an appropriate color space).  Yes there is a zooming feature.  In Safari 4, (I haven't upgraded to 5 yet) the zoom feature is accessed through the drop-down menu on the "page" icon in the upper right corner of the screen.  You can also zoom in by using the Ctrl plus + keys and zoom out by using the Ctrl plus - keys.

Yes, the ColorMunki is expensive.  I'm very particular about color calibration, and so to me the price was worth it.  As an option, some people have been very happy with results from the Spyder 3 calibrator from ColorVision.  The Spyder 3 calibrator (hardware) comes bundled with several different software packages, with the least expensive being the Spyder 3 Express, which retails for $89.  (Much more palatable than $500.)  Because the Spyder is a colorimeter, it's design allows it to do a very, very good job, as long as the gamut of your monitor falls within a pre-defined range.  I've seen the 2709m gamut listed as 92% of adobe RGB, so the Spyder 3 should be able to handle that range.  You might want to do a google search on "2709m calibration" and see if the Spyder 3 is working well for folks that own that monitor.  If so, the $89 is a bargain.

In answer to your question "anything else I need to know" I can tell you that depending on your particular machine and software you might have an issue with Windows 7 "dumping" your custom monitor profile when the system returns from sleep or being logged off and back on again.  I had this problem with my system (Dell M6500, Wndows 7 64-bit and ColorMunki) and had to set the custom profile as the default Windows System Profile in order to force Windows reload the profile when returning from sleep.  My wife on the other hand, has a Lenovo system (Windows 7 64-bit as well) with a built in Huey calibrator, and it NEVER dumps her profile.  When I talked to the ColorVision representative during a trade conference, they mentioned that ColorVision had specifically updated their software to prevent Windows from overriding the profile.  So if you go with a calibrator sold by ColorVision (Spyder 3) then you might not have to worry about the Windows 7 profile issues.  It's easy to address if you recognize what is happening, but some folks don't, and end up being very frustrated when it appears that their monitor is not holding its calibration.

Please feel free to ask any other questions.  Color Management can be a complicated issue, but it is well worth the effort.

Keith
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 10:36:22 PM by keithsnell »

girod

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Re: Color Management
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2010, 11:13:29 PM »
I'm already liking Safari in viewing different images from different sites, including mine at mypicturetown.com. I found the zooming feature.

Are you saying that Colormunki is overkill for the HP2709m? and Spyder3 is just right?

Since the 2709m has only 92% of AdobeRGB, there's no benefit in processing initially in ProPhoto or Nikon's Wide AdobeRGB colorspace then later convert to the target output colorspace?

jaime

keithsnell

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Re: Color Management
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2010, 07:30:35 AM »
I'm already liking Safari in viewing different images from different sites, including mine at mypicturetown.com. I found the zooming feature.

Are you saying that Colormunki is overkill for the HP2709m? and Spyder3 is just right?

Since the 2709m has only 92% of AdobeRGB, there's no benefit in processing initially in ProPhoto or Nikon's Wide AdobeRGB colorspace then later convert to the target output colorspace?

jaime

Whether or not the Colormunki is "overkill" depends on your perspective.  If you are very particular about color management, as I am, then the ColorMunki is "just right."  If however, you just want basic color management and something that gets you close (around 85 to 90% of the accuracy of the ColorMunki based on what I have read), then the $89 Spider 3 Express is more suited to your requirements.  From what you have told me about your current requirements, then yes, the ColorMunki is probably overkill and the Spider 3 Express is "just right" for your situation.

To answer your question about processing in ProPhoto:  I know that many people advocate processing in ProPhoto because it "preserves" more of the color gamut available from the sensor.  There are, however, dangers in processing in a color space that contains colors that you cannot see on your monitor.  Depending on how you process the image (i.e., increasing color saturation) or how you convert to a color space for output, you can introduce "false colors" into the image, which will make matching prints to screen very, very difficult, and can result in inaccurate colors (that you can't control) in your final output.  I prefer processing in a color space that better matches what I can see on the monitor, which for me is adobeRGB.  If I knew that 1) the image contains important colors outside of adobeRGB and 2) I would be outputting to a device that could correctly render those colors, only then would I consider processing the file in ProPhoto or Wide AdobeRGB.  Even then, I would be very careful about any increases in color saturation, such as using the "standard" or "vivid" tone curves, which increase saturation beyond the more natural "neutral" tone curve.  Since the majority of my images are output to a device that can't render colors outside of adobeRGB, using a wider color space is counter productive for my workflow.  If, in the future, I decide to output an image to a wide gamut device, I know I can easily reprocess the raw file to maximize the gamut (if needed).  Does that make sense?

Keith



girod

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Re: Color Management
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2010, 11:49:05 PM »
'Got it Keith. You always makes sense, hence I always turn to you.

Thanks a lot, as always.
jaime